community-based, non-corporate, participatory media
community-based, non-corporate, participatory media
3:55 Update on Pittsburgh A24 Protest
by IMC folks
Sunday, Aug. 24, 2003 at 11:57 AM
mh5r@andrew.cmu.edu
Protesters were ordered to disperse.
Following orders to move to the sidewalk, marchers were ordered by Pittsburgh Police to disperse. This happened as the march was approximately at Fifth and Bellefield Avenues.
A supervising officer spoke up and asked police officers to take it easy on the marchers. One individual was arrested.
It was reported that the arrestee was walking very close to the curb and was struck by a police car. The individual was alleged to have been attempting to write down the licence plate number of the police car when he was arrested.
Marchers made plans to reconverge at Project 1877 later.
Witness to the arrest
by bugg
Sunday, Aug. 24, 2003 at 12:23 PM
Hey all, I was there and saw most of what happened during the arrest.
What I saw:
The person who was arrested was one of the last people to make the shift from the street to the sidewalk, but afterwards he stayed on the sidewalk. He carefully walked on the edge of the sidewalk, almost as if it were a tightrope, but nevertheless staying on the sidewalk. Even during this time they shouted at him to "get on the sidewalk" - although he was clearly already there.
As far as I could tell, the police were angered by the fact that he was obeying their orders but wasn't cowering in fear from the police. It is my opinion that it was at this point in time that the police (one young cop who I'm sure many of you would recognize from other rallies looked particularly angry) decided that they were going to look for away to arrest him.
The next thing I saw happened quickly, so I'm not too sure exactly how it all went down. I noticed the following things, but I'm not sure exactly in what order: the arrest was made, something was taken out of his hand, and the cops were looking at what he had and seemed not to happy to see it. Rumors at the time were that it was a piece of litter, possibly a battery, that he had picked up. I am unable to vouch for what it was or wasn't, however.
What I Heard
by quinten
Sunday, Aug. 24, 2003 at 12:47 PM
quinten@indypgh.org
A police officer came up to the protestor and said that he was under arrest. Here is what I heard: (I may have missed an earlier part of the exchange)
Police are handcuffing protestor. At this point he is on the sidewalk.
Protestor: "A battery? For what?"
Police officer: "Dude. You picked it up and were going to throw it at the car."
Protestor: "I don't think that's true."
Police officer: "I think that is true. I'm not instigating [sic] anything."
Protestor: "I'm not resisting arrest."
He is then thrown on top of a police car and about 6 police officers "assist" in arresting him.
I did not see the protestor pick anything up or make any motions to the police car.
Police
by yo mama
Sunday, Aug. 24, 2003 at 5:20 PM
What bull. The police just wanted to cut our march short and they did it by arresting someone.
POLICE CONTROL THROUGH FEAR!
My take
by of arrest
Monday, Aug. 25, 2003 at 4:59 AM
Police used the slant angle with their cars to force us onto the sidewalk. Jo stepped into the street a few times with his left foot - keeping his right foot on the sidewalk. The one cop (who has been @ several other marches) ordered two other cops to grab Jo. They first attempted to grab his hand. There is some talk that he had picked up a battery from the sidewalk (why is it always a battery story from a demo????) Anyway police pried something from his hand, cuffed him and threw him onto the car, while he was saying "I am not resisting arrrest" There was no reason for cops to arrest him - they were not provoked. They already had us pinned on the sidewalk but they had to make a show of force. Although I wished the march would have gone much longer we made it a good distance - do not be discouraged by what transpired. Everyone that came out did well. We have some things to work on but all parties should feel good about yesterday.
My View
by Sam
Monday, Aug. 25, 2003 at 5:14 AM
When we started holding unpermitted marches, it caught the police by surprise. They've now adapted to the tactic. Frankly, nothing short of defensive physical violence (which I certainly don't advocate) could protect our marches from now on.
So, we too need to adapt. We need some new tactics. I have plenty of suggestions, as do others, I'm sure. IndyMedia isn't the best place to be discussing them, of course.
72 Psychiatric Evaluation for Cops?
by Energizer Bunny
Monday, Aug. 25, 2003 at 5:14 AM
Always the imaginary batteries.
Maybe some folks could dress like giant batteries at the next demo?
Battery Bloc
by UNITY
Monday, Aug. 25, 2003 at 5:54 AM
I agree with Sam - we need to hold a meeting while emotions and ideas are still in the forefront from Sunday. It needs to be late this week. We need to mobilize.
Dressing up as batteries is a hilarious idea. Then someone could really throw "the batteries" at the police. Kind of a mobile blockade? Maybe dressing up as giant batteries like a padded bloc? hhhhmmmmm
Batterywear
by Thad
Monday, Aug. 25, 2003 at 6:34 AM
>Dressing up as batteries is a hilarious idea.
Funny idea, but what will it ultimately lead to?
When we do these things, we only entertain ourselves, when that energy could be better spent appealing to the working class. Dressing up, carrying signs that have what the working class will consider to be ridiculous messages ("Bush is Hitler" comes to mind), will do nothing to make the working class want to listen to our message or join us in our struggle. For too many years, we have conducted ourselves in such a way that is a complete turn-off, in a way that only appeals to anxious youth. So many of my friends were active at one time, but as they grew older the weight of family life and providing for their needs took precidence. That is to be expected as one gets older, but they and most working class families do not want to be identified with a bunch of mask wearing, battery-dressing "hoodlums", and I don't blame them. On older more mature people it just makes them look silly.
Until we start taking ourselves seriously and how we present ourselves and our message seriously, we cannot expect others to take us seriously. Our message will continue to fall on deaf ears.
I am with Thad on this one
by =
Monday, Aug. 25, 2003 at 7:00 AM
Thad is right. We need to build our credibility and wider acceptance if we are going to get our message out. People look at us and they think it is some kind of Halloween march with all the masks and costumes.
don't buy it.
by .
Monday, Aug. 25, 2003 at 7:16 AM
don't do it. society has many faces and all need to be represented. That includes those who dress in black as a show of solidarity and anonimity, out of the desire not to become recognisible targets, as they go about their everyday lives.
Maybe the 'working class' need to be reminded what it's like to have a little fun. We're working toward a good cause here, not more 'struggling to get by,' We want to get to a place where you can have a picnic and a laugh on a nice sunday afternoon without worrying if you'll have a job on monday because all of our country's vast wealth is being wasted killing Iraqis for excercising their right to protest, a right that we fought a war to give them.
I am not, nor ever have participated in a black block, I am not a 'shabbily dressed' youth, and I love those kids with all the heart I can give them. Keep on keeping strong.
"Quit being so serious, don't you know there's a war on?"
Here goes
by +
Monday, Aug. 25, 2003 at 7:27 AM
Thad - I agree with you in part. The giant battery idea is just meant to be funny. You have to kick around a bunch of ideas to find a good one. I understand the working class needs to be part of the movement but understand why folks wear a mask. We are not hoodlums. Understand certain more involved people in a movement need to conseal their identity. People are targeted by the police as organizers and instigaters. We need this diversity @ demos. We need the black bloc just as much as we need the working class bloc!!!!! We do need to bridge these gaps. I do not think people will find a Bush is Hitler sign to be ridiculous. The Bush family has very strong ties to Hitler and he has acted like a tyrant since his reign began.
We do take actions like this seriously but we need further solidarity. The message did not fall on deaf ears. I heard a hell of a lot of people beeping their car horns and cheers of support. And this part of older more mature people looking silly.......don't you think George W. Bush looked pretty fucking silly dressed up in that flight suit with a sock stuffing his crotch waiting for the sunset for the perfect photo op in San Diego. That was pretty silly. That was an older mature man with a family dressed up looking like a fucking fool.
Thad, I appreciate your comments and the movement needs more of them and more criticism to become more effective. Do not take a dim view because I do not agree with most of them. You seem to have friends who agree with the movement but not it's tactics. How can we bridge that gap. I had talked to some random people in the weeks before the A24 demo who I thought would attend. I thought I had done some good outreach but these folks didn't show. We need better outreach and unity. We are all there for the same cause.
+
by Thad
Monday, Aug. 25, 2003 at 7:41 AM
>I understand the working class needs to be part of the movement but understand why folks wear a mask. We are not hoodlums. Understand certain more involved people in a movement need to conseal their identity.
Perception is everything. People wearing masks do not appeal to the working class unless they feel imminent threats, which they do not at this point. We are making a more militant statement than is necessary for the occasion.
>We need the black bloc just as much as we need the working class bloc!!!!!
Black Bloc tactics will isolate the working class. Nobody wants to take their kids to a march where people might perform violent acts. The working class doesn't wnat to be associated with people destroying personal and private property. We are defeating ourselves.
>I do not think people will find a Bush is Hitler sign to be ridiculous.
Yes, it will. I assure you most working class families don't relate Bush to Hitler at all. It just makes us look stupid and over-the-top.
>don't you think George W. Bush looked pretty fucking silly dressed up in that flight suit with a sock stuffing his crotch waiting for the sunset for the perfect photo op in San Diego. That was pretty silly. That was an older mature man with a family dressed up looking like a fucking fool.
Again, isolating the working class. Focus on what he does. His appearance is acceptable to most of the working class and they listen to his message. Our appearance is not. Thus, the problem.
>How can we bridge that gap.
By doing a complete make-over of how we present our message. Unless we can approach the working class in a mature manner and with the appearance of reasonable people, they will turn us right off. And we are known by the company we keep. This has to be a movement-wide objective. Yes, temporarily it will be discomforting, but until we can get our foot in the doors of working people's homes and lives, we are stuck in the same rut we have been in for 40 years.
Black Tie Affair
by UNITY
Monday, Aug. 25, 2003 at 9:27 AM
Maybe we could all come disguised in suits and ties for the next demo. I am completely serious.
maybe
by ,
Monday, Aug. 25, 2003 at 9:42 AM
maybe we could all just wear suits all the time, and stop bothering with this 'anti-war' message. Then the working class would respect us and agree with us. If we just shut up and agree with them...
Thad
by ...
Monday, Aug. 25, 2003 at 9:47 AM
Thad,
I couldn't disagree with you more. I don't think the presentation needs reshaped.
A24 had a variety of events and was organized in such a way that there was A LOT of space for other groups and people to plan their own actions-event (the fact this was not utilized by others is another issue). The picnic and rally were exactly the types of events you seem to be in favor of. They appeal to a large number of people and are not very scary or militant. The fact is that the vast majority of those who attened the picnic and rally took part in the march. This seems to say that most people attending less militant events are also participating in more militant actions. That is great! The bad point it illustrates is no one is doing a good job at bring new people into the movement. I sure as hell see the need for permitted marches, but I also see the need for un-permitted and disruptive actions. They are not mutually exclusive. I think what you really should be saying is that there are not enough people organizing-publizing events that can appeal to a wide range of people. I would agree with that. I think POG does what they can but how is POG supposed to do everything? There must be other groups working with POG to bring diversity to these days of action and make sure that everyone can participate how they feel most comfortable. I have never seen any "militant" group like POG organize as many safe-non militant actions as they do. I've also never seen such a group be so open to the participation of other folks who want to tie in events to their actions. I would encourage you to contact them before the next event if you come up with an idea for something-
why not a
peace crane making party at the next picnic
a permitted march that goes one way and a disruptive march that goes the other
a carnival theme
etc etc
If you're analysis was entirely correct the anti-war movement in Pittsburgh would have grown and grown after the April 26th event (which although it was exactly what you want to occur was bland, low energy, uninspired, and seemed to turn people off the possability of making a difference). On the country- the local anti-war movement over the last 9 months has had more people proportionally, more events, and more diversity then every other city in the country with the exception of San Fran and Portland.
One other thing I would say is you seem to have a lot of mistaken impressions of what a black bloc is and what it's purpose is. I will try to find resources to post about this.
blac block
by Evan N
Monday, Aug. 25, 2003 at 9:51 AM
i think people need to chill with the whole black bloc thing
everyone is talking about ways to get people to take us seriously - so i say we drop the whole blac bloc aspect
i wasnt at the march, but in all of the pictures there is like a 4 person black block at the front of the march, which to normal bystanders and the public looks like goofy hooligans or suburban kids trying to be badasses. if the black bloc is there for protection , it doesnt work unless everyone is in black. 4 people leading the protest in black doesnt do anything but make people think we are weirdos. its just not necessary
More absentee expertise from the teenage trot
by not in mt lebanon
Monday, Aug. 25, 2003 at 10:04 AM
There were about 20 of us in the bloc.
You buttheads aren't even old enough to vote
by 2 beers
Monday, Aug. 25, 2003 at 10:26 AM
I love it .. a sign that says "Stop ALL War" and then a bunch of hooligans that talk endlessly about THEIR war (which of course is the only good war). It looks lie a bunch of kids who are barely old enough to vote, and in any event have the mentality of high school kids. That is why these rallies are so useless. Life will always be a struggle for you idiots, because you are what is commonly referred to as "anti-social". If you lived in a utopian society with free ice cream and back rubs for everyone, you would still find a way to revolt against brainfreeze, muscle-cramps or the symbolism of a massuese as the hand of government meant to keep you down.
They let 2 beers ride in the car yesterday
by vision tester
Monday, Aug. 25, 2003 at 11:04 AM
He always looks so much funnier when he runs alongside the marches holding his stick.
Musta been a good boy.
How about another rally ...
by Yard of Beer
Monday, Aug. 25, 2003 at 11:21 AM
opposing the REAL cause of all economic oppression and injustice upon the 'working class'. How about a rally to repeal the confiscatory tax laws of this country that only works to keep the politicians in power. Put our money back in our hands NOW !!! I would definitely rally for this. Once the pols lose the power that is given to them by being able to just steal from us whenver they want, then we will achieve some true economic and social justice.
evan
by 0606046
Monday, Aug. 25, 2003 at 11:44 AM
Evan,
Maybe instead of complaining about how the events looked you should participate. These aren't events where the organizers are strictly controlling what the event looks and feels like. No one was there to control what you did or said. You could have brought whatever you wanted to the event.
2beers
by JohnRPGH
Monday, Aug. 25, 2003 at 12:46 PM
2 beers, for all this crap you say to us about how bad we are, I never see you EVER showing up at any rallies, marches, or meetings and saying it to our face. If you want us to ever take you seriously, do something other than spout out random bullshit under a false alias on a leftist newswire.
If you don't see me ...
by 2 beers
Monday, Aug. 25, 2003 at 12:58 PM
Then I have been effective ;) Trust me, I have seen you.
. & ...
by Thad
Monday, Aug. 25, 2003 at 1:04 PM
>maybe we could all just wear suits all the time, and stop bothering with this 'anti-war' message. Then the working class would respect us and agree with us. If we just shut up and agree with them...
Why are you doing this? Are you COINTELPRO? Why do you feel the need to belittle my suggestions and to not fully consider what I said in its context? If we can't have unity among comrades, how can we expect others to want to be a part of us?
>They appeal to a large number of people
If they do, why didn't more turn out? How many students are at Pitt and how many came out as a total of the whole student population? How many union workers are there in and around Pittsburgh and how many came to the picnic?
>but I also see the need for un-permitted and disruptive actions
Do that and shut out a majority of the working class who want noting to do with that. The individuals in our movement have in the past and even today now suffer from a lack of self discipline.
>If you're analysis was entirely correct the anti-war movement in Pittsburgh would have grown and grown after the April 26th event
It hasn't been attempted. You can't do something once or twice and say "Well, that didn't work." We have to be consistent. Over the past 40 years we have consistently done the same type of actions or slight variations thereof, and we are no closer now than we were then. It's time to retrench and become more intertwined with the working class. Go where they go, do what they do, be a part of them. Know enough about the Steelers, Pirates and Penguins to have a conversation with them. Know about the problems they are facing and their fears. Let them know we are there to help them. We have to become a part of the community in a way they will accept us and let us talk to them about what is important.
>mistaken impressions of what a black bloc
Black bloc is a tactic. It has had successes early on, but it has become almost a "cult" thing to do among some and the police are always ready. We cannot defeat the powers that be by fighting on their level. Like someone said, they have the money, they have the power and resources, they are heavily bunkered in, and they are armed to the teeth. Without the working class, we cannot and will not ever achieve our goals. We cannot win over the working class dressing, acting and behaving like "hoodlims". That has been proven already quite definately over time. We must change our MO.
Ever-ready
by Joel Woller
Monday, Aug. 25, 2003 at 1:09 PM
Thad, in a lot of ways I agree with what you're saying. I'm certainly happy you're saying it.
I do think that (as you seem to say) for at least 40 years autonomy has tended to trump solidarity in the US, and that the importance of class has not been fully appreciated. And if you're saying that there is can be a difference between being revolutionary (always) and being militant (yes, but only when really possible and when the occasion demands), I would agree.
Slight digression: I personally had difficulty reaching out for yesterday's event, even though I gladly participated, largely because the flyers were not helpful and I didn't have the time or expertise to come up with alternatives. The GI in the mousetrap flyer did not seem to really express sympathy for the troops, and while I think such sympathy is not enough, it is needed. Likewise the other flyer I was able to download--"creative resistance is required"--seemed as much like a call for a juried art show as an invitation to oppose the occupation and to link it to related issues. Some of the other info I saw--references to "nonboring speakers, etc."--gave me the impression that petty infighting is, at the moment, tending to get in the way of effective outreach.
But, I have concerns about where your line of thinking leads, Thad, and about what it assumes.
Assumption: You talk about the working class as if it's someone else, and as if you know what the working class thinks and feels. I understand that sometimes shorthand is needed, but...look, the working class is diverse and complicated. Cops, teachers, fast-food workers, truck drivers, steelworkers...all working-class, but in different ways. And unless you live off of your investments or someone else's, I would say that you're working class too.
Consequence: I'm not an enthusiast for black bloc attire, and I'm not really sure I know what black bloc tactics are. But I wonder if you are suggesting that the black bloc should be disinvited from future protests. Who is to do this, and on what basis exactly?
I'm not comfortable with telling people how to dress at demonstrations. As far as how people act, I've not yet seen any violence (which is where I might consider drawing some kind of line). Ultimately, I think the call for more different, connected actions (diversity of tactics) has to be the way to go. And I think that as we reflect critically on what we are doing we need to remember that blame lies primarily with the cops and those they protect, not on any of us.
Joel
by Thad
Monday, Aug. 25, 2003 at 5:30 PM
Before I begin, I must be out of town for the next few days, but would like to continue this discussion when I get back if circumstances permit.
>You talk about the working class as if it's someone else, and as if you know what the working class thinks and feels.
I appreciate your insight. Obviously, I don't know all that the working class feels and thinks. None of us can. Together we can know more. It's hard to fully express yourself and all the things you have in mind on a message board such as this. Sometimes I will simply have to hit the highlights, as others will also, and we'll all have to bear that in mind when we converse. Please forgive any misunderstandings.
>But I wonder if you are suggesting that the black bloc should be disinvited from future protests.
There is a time and place for black bloc. But like anything, when you do it seemingly every time, it loses its "meaning" (for lack of better words). There was no reason to black bloc on A24. Nothing imminent is taking place. From what I'm seeing, the cops were ready. It wouldn't work. Why present a threating stance towards the police when none is necessary?
Black bloc is best carried out by disjointed individuals, or better yet, an individual alone, who agrees on a plan of action, carries it out, and keeps his/her mouth shut. To try and black bloc "on the fly" just won't work. The police have their tactics down, and they expect it during demonstrations. They have back-up, they have weapons, we can't win against them, not that way.
What they aren't expecting and what they can't defend is for you as an individual or a small group of comrades to do something right now, this instant. They aren't expecting it at this moment in time, right now. But let me be very clear to anyone, and I do mean anyone and everyone who might be reading this: I do not condone breaking the law.
But overall, I don't believe the particular tactic will be looked on in history as having much of an effect towards moving the stuggle in a forward manner.
>I'm not comfortable with telling people how to dress at demonstrations.
Be an example. We have those who are in this just because it seems like the thing to do. They have visions of the 60's and want to somehow get a feel for what it was like. That's all good and dandy, and we don't want to destroy that enthusiasm. But at the same time, there are serious matter to be addressed. I'm not saying 3-piece suits and formal wear, but individuals who wear masks, who say "fuck" every other word, who shout out things without thinking out the consequenses of who they may hurt, we've somehow got to impress upon people that the working class will not identify with people who do such things. We're asking people to step up to a higher calling than the destruction capitalism brings, yet sometimes we are guilty of talking to them like we live in the gutter. We have to live our lives and conduct ourselves in such a way that people look at us and say "These are people I want to identify with and be a part."
Peace
it all boils down to...
by peace
Monday, Aug. 25, 2003 at 7:15 PM
and behold
those that try to expose the reality
who really try to realize democracy
are shot with rubber bullets and gassed off the streets
while the global power brokers are kept clean and discrete
behind a wall
behind a moat
and that is all
that's all she wrote
and my heart beats an s o s
cuz folks couldnt care less
as long as everyday is superbowl sunday
and larger than life women in lingerine
are pouting at us from from every bus stop
shelovesme shelovesmenot shelovesme shelovesmenot
Black Bloc and Working Class
by A. Wob
Monday, Aug. 25, 2003 at 7:19 PM
I am really surprised to read that some folks here think that people engaged in a black bloc are somehow separate from the working class. Most folks I've met who were involved in a bb were working class through and through (although I have met some bb'ers who have contempt for "typical" working people).
I do think that *sometimes* activists substitute summit hopping and black-bloc tactics for the less immediate gratification of opposing the state and corporations through community and workplace organizing (and yes, there is good organizing in the activist community, but I'm talking about reaching out to and working with others who don't consider themselves activists in the least). WTO protests and union organizing, for example, should be complementary and not mutually exclusive.
2 beers, we see you all the time
by Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Monday, Aug. 25, 2003 at 7:39 PM
There are a ton of pictures of you here, pet trollcop. You musta quit peeing your pants, and they let you ride in the passenger seat. Good to see you again. Get some contacts.
Did you get your pink slip?
TOTALLY Agree, Thad
by Sam
Tuesday, Aug. 26, 2003 at 2:25 PM
That's exactly what I've been saying since I became politically conscious.
Conservative critics of progresssive activists say they don't understand the issues. They're wrong -- they understand the issues very well. They just don't understand politics.
re: don't buy it
by Sam
Tuesday, Aug. 26, 2003 at 2:32 PM
I've given up mask-wearing all but permanently.
You can try and argue that it creates a sense of equality if everyone's masked. But shouldn't strive for equality in spite of differences? If we hide our faces, aren't we implicitly saying that our physical differences are so great that they would interfere with our tendency to view one another as equals? I don't think that's the kind of message we want to send.
Oh, but it's to protect as from the cops... nope. Cops are trained specifically to pick out small details in appearance. Chances are your mask isn't making it that much harder for you to be identified.
This isn't to attack anyone who *does* choose the wear a mask (more power to ya if that's the case), only to explain why I've personally made the choice to go unmasked, after thinking about it for a while.
Re: Black Tie Affair
by Sam
Tuesday, Aug. 26, 2003 at 2:35 PM
During the civil rights movement, demonstrators frequently went to actions dressed in their best church clothes, to show that they believed they were doing something dignified.
Oh, I forgot, we're out to have fun, not prevent people from getting killed...
2 beers
by Sam
Tuesday, Aug. 26, 2003 at 2:40 PM
There were actually a significant number of older people at the march, as there are at every march.
A. Wob
by Sam
Tuesday, Aug. 26, 2003 at 2:46 PM
I agree that it's wrong of people to stereotype bloc blocers as "non-working class". Certainly, working class people (albeit younger ones, not that it should matter) *do* take part in black blocs.
UNfortunately, there's also what I would call a lumpenproletariat element to the black bloc at many actions I've attended. Summit-hopping CrimethInc kids come to mind.
My View (Again)
by Sam
Tuesday, Aug. 26, 2003 at 3:06 PM
Here's the good, bad, and ugly of the movement as I've witnessed it... just my own very biased opinion, so take it with plenty of salt... this critique is coming primarily from the PoV of a participant and observer, rather than an organizer...
The Good: Outreach. Almost every event draws decent numbers. Cultural/creative activities -- the Carnival of Greed, POG's dead babies, I'll even grudgingly acknowledge the Peaceburgh people. There have been an abundane of great speakers and performers. Civil disobendience and direct actions have been good, but lacking variety.
The Bad: Almost every action is too white, IMHO. Now, I know Pittsburgh is a pretty white city, but people of color *should* be disproportionately represented at actions, since they're disproportionately affected by that which we protest.
Another point: I don't really care how much you say the word "fuck". But employing it in chants when we're trying to win the working class majority to our side is alienating not only to onlookers, but to people who want to bring their kids to actions. Oooh, you can cuss! I'm impressed! Grow up.
Another point that someone else already brought up: POG can't do all the militant actions. There's plenty of room for autonomous actions.
The Ugly: Sectarianism. This is actually less of a problem in Pittsburgh than it is elsewhere. POG and the TMC working together is wonderful. But like everywhere else, it's still a bit of a problem.
My view
by wheatpaster
Tuesday, Aug. 26, 2003 at 5:44 PM
I've purposfully stayed a mile away from this stuff, but I just need to express one observation:
There are far too few people contibuting to organizing right now, and far too many critiquing organizing. Join a group. Create a group. Make better posters, better websites, better rallies, better art. The TMC crew will help you if you don't know how to start.
clothing
by Me
Tuesday, Aug. 26, 2003 at 7:44 PM
Sam had some good points. I don't wear a mask because I have heard a lot of people in cars and on the street say "Why are you wearing a mask? Are you ashamed?" And I am NOT ashamed for marching. I think we should feel that we are doing something GOOD, and we should be PROUD of what we are doing. And I want them to know that, because if they think that we are scared or ashamed then they won't want to listen to our message.
Cops are really good at looking at detail. It's in their training. Even I can sometimes recognize people behind their masks by looking at their eyes.
Its a double edged sword.
random replies
by gwen
Tuesday, Aug. 26, 2003 at 10:52 PM
gwen@pghgoth.com
I don't think Thad is trying to make a comment on the Black Bloc in and of itself, and it does seem he sees the purpose in it. However, it is a very blatant way of making a statement. I'm goth, and I was impressed by the vision of black bloc I saw at the protest on Sunday... and of course that's what the media showed in full force on the news that night.
The point is, if that's what is being presented, it is going to alienate a lot of the people out there (not just working class) who don't understand what the black bloc is -- sure, we do (me only after starting to get involved in this stuff and reading up on it), but that's a very small minority of the population. To most people, it looks like people dressed in black masks, usually associated with thievery or other criminal activities in media (movies, TV, etc). Or, uhm, goths... and I certainly know how much we're loved.
In other words, yes, there are a lot of reasons for the Black Bloc, but you really do have to consider that you are making a negative impression on the public with it. Perhaps there is a compromise in there somewhere. Hell, perhaps you can come up with a creative and novel approach that fits the problems we are having in this city, rather than the solution to the more massive protests in other cities with far more zealous cops (you can argue this all you want, but the DC cops are far more zealous -- I saw that one first hand). It's just a thought.
And I would love to discuss this sort of thing with people, but since you're taking it off of IndyMedia, it's a bit difficult for me to become involved with that process.
right
by Gabby
Monday, Sep. 01, 2003 at 11:24 AM
Even if we do look stupid with a bush is hitler sign who would care... we are doing it to show what we belive in not to show that we are serious or not.
![[masthead]](/images/masthead_140.png)